Weighing the Value of Jewish Day School

This year will be Mr. CL' s and my 14th year together. We met in high school, and started dating in university. Before we were together, Mr. CL invited me to go camping with his buddies.  I was "strategically" (I later learned) seated beside Mr. CL, and we had a long conversation on the ride up. The conversation comprised mostly of swapping stories about our horrible experiences at our respective Toronto Jewish Day Schools. I distinctly remember thinking to myself "Wow! A Jewish guy who won't insist that I send my kids to Jewish Day School - perfect!" I was wrong.

Once we got serious, Mr. CL made it clear that he had no intention of "depriving" his kids of the Day School experience. And I made it clear that I don't love camping. So, I guess we're even. In any case, for Mr. CL, a strong Jewish identity is something he intently wants to impart on our children, and, he feels that Jewish Day School is one of the best vehicles with which to do this. (That I left Jewish Day School practically antisemitic for a couple of years, and refusing to acknowledge that I was Jewish lest I be associated with the kids I went to school with there, doesn't sway him.) He argues that just because we had bad experiences, doesn't mean  that our kids will, and he's probably right.

In any case, I'm not entirely against the idea of Jewish Day School for two main reasons:

#1. I think the academic standards are generally higher in private schools. I'm very skeptical about the quality of public education in Toronto. I'll admit that the skepticism is largely based on personal experience rather than research. As an elementary student I found that the public school system here had far lower expectations of students than the public schools in South Africa, and the local private schools. As a professional in the public system, I'm constantly watching educational services get cut. The recent teacher's strikes also have not done very much to inspire my confidence. And, though I'm sure I'll offend numerous in saying this, to be honest, I think the standards for becoming a teacher are far too low in the Toronto universities. (Having said that, the quality of the training of the teachers in the private system is by no means guaranteed to be inherently better.)

#2. I'm willing to pay for my children to be fluent in a second language.  Now, I'm not entirely sure that Hebrew is necessarily the language I would want to invest in. I think the kids will get more bang for our buck if they learn French, Spanish or Mandarin. However, Hebrew does have personal significance for our family . . and man do I wish I could speak it!  So, I'd be happy if they came out with a good Hebrew foundation, and hopefully they can pick up another language later on.

The Jewish Day School that looks good on paper for our family is Bialik. Mr. CL likes the level of religious education - i.e. children who graduate from this school will not be lost at a seder table, or a shabbat service. For me, I like that the school has more of a cultural/Israeli bent than a religious one. Children are not required to be halachically Jewish (an automatic deal-breaker for me about Associated Hebrew Day Schools). Though they learn about Judaism, religious practice isn't forced on the kids - they aren't made to wear kippas, they don't have to bring kosher lunches unless there is a class-wide event, and they aren't asked to daven.

Nevertheless, I do have some reservations.

#1. The expense. It's not just the tuition. Bialik is nowhere near us.(Let's leave the discussion of moving out of Toronto in the burbs for the North campus for another post. Right now moving North of the city is not something we want to consider). The South campus is in a very expensive area. Our options: a) stay where we are and be able to afford the school, but have major problems getting there - and back to work - especially in the winter, or b) move a reasonable distance from the school, but then not be able to afford the tuition.

#2. If we're paying that much $$, is it worth limiting ourselves to Jewish school? For Mr. CL - it's a resounding yes. He doesn't have the issues with academic levels, or the strong desire for second language acquisition that I do. The Jewish part is the part he wants to pay for. While for Mr. CL, the motivation for sending our kids to a Jewish school comes in part (IMO) for our lack of religious observance at home (i.e. to make up for what we're not modeling),  for me, it is precisely our secularness* that makes me question whether a Jewish education is worth paying for. I get if you're frum, why you would want to pay for a Jewish education . . . there are so many details involved in maintaining an Orthodox lifestyle etc. etc,. . but for us . . . why?? Is it worth forking over basically my entire pay cheque so that Mini CL can be Abba Shabbat? In other words, while I think we shouldn't pay for a Jewish school because we don't live in a Jewish world, my husband thinks we should pay for a Jewish school precisely because we don't live in a Jewish world.  Your thoughts???

*Although, I should point out that Mr. CL does not consider himself secular as he observes Rosh Hashana, Pesach, and Yom Kippur. We also put up a Sukkah, and our kids dress up for Purim.

Question! About being grateful for what one is not . . .

T-shirt sold here.

I'm sure this has been discussed abundantly online, but I'm interested in the bottom line. Why are Orthodox men meant to thank God everyday for not being made a woman, and why don't Orthodox women find this sentiment offensive?

Are the justifications for blessings expressing gratitude for not being a gentile or slave similar?

Happy Purim! - Updated

Mr. CL dragged me to  a Megillah reading tonight for the first time in decades that I can remember . . . and I was pleasantly surprised that it was actually fun. Purim was something we never celebrated when I was growing up (along with everything else that we didn't celebrate) so there's no nostaligia factor for me. Mr. CL and I have taken the kids to purim carnivals at shuls the past, but  they've always been really lame. Cold, grey, dreary, slushy Toronto winter Sundays spent awkwardly milling around some attempt at a carnival inside the party room of an oversized shul where we don't really know anyone and are just procrastinating figuring out what to with the kids once they get sick of the bouncy castle . . . .

 Anyway, tonight's shul (a Conservative congregation - the Adath Israel for anyone in Toronto) did an excellent job with their family service.  They had set up a power point of all the events, so it was easy to follow what was happening (e.g. script/lyrics to Havdallah and songs were all up). (Are most shuls now getting so tech savvy, or is this shul just on the ball?) The crowd was very young, and laid back, and the service was very interactive. For example, they threw in polls where people texted in answers to trivia, and you could see the responses right away on screen. When it came to the reading, they played an illustrated abridged version of the events behind the reader . . . and I even found the editing around  the narration of non-PG13 story elements amusing. My daughter lasted about 25 mins before I had to take her for a walk, and we peeked into the spread they had, which was also awesome - cotton candy, pop corn, chocolate hamentashen. fruit  . . .and lots of it - and the event was free! So no, I didn't actually listen to/hear the whole megillah, but  I was very much entertained, which IMO is more important anyway, :p! Tomorrow we're doing a carnival at the JCC and not our in laws OJ shul as we have in the past. We're meeting with  new friends there, so maybe it won't totally suck . . . In any case, in the spirit of costumes and entertainment, here are some fun Deena Mann You Tube videos. Hope you are all having a fabulous holiday . . or  weekend - wherever you are!!

Update: The JCC carnival didn't suck. When trying to figure out what made the difference, our final conclusion was that we just fit in/were more comfortable with the crowd there better. At the JCC we felt like part of the community participating in our community's event. At the OJ shul where Mr. CL's family goes and where we'd gone to the carnivals in the past, we felt like we were visitors in someone else's community . . . which we kind of were.

Why Be Orthoprax? Interview with Undercover Kofer

As promised last week, my interview with Undercover Kofer whose blog very much contributed to the inspiration for me to begin this one. 


For those new to the blog, interested in reading OP perspectives, here some previous interviews that address similar themes:
Cali Girl Although this didn't start out as "Why Be Orthoprax?" interview, Cali Girl provides her answer to the question.   
Shilton Hasechel The first official "Why be Orthoprax?" interview from another blogger whose writing I found inspiring. 
Atheodox Jew speaks about his way of "owning" one's Orthodoxy. 

In the meantime, enjoy! And thank you so much UK for participating in the blog!! It's an honour to have you here, and very much appreciated!


1. Please tell us a bit about yourself. Where did you grow up? What type of Jewish upbringing/education did you have?

I hope you don't mind me obfuscating the name my country of origin, but since the communities are very small, it would be immediately obvious to people that grew up in the same place. So I was born and bred somewhere in Western-Europe where I received a more or less Modern Orthodox education. I went to a moderately religious school and had extra Jewish hours at school and in the evenings. We went to shul (synagogue) every day although not always twice. I was furthermore involved with Bnei Akiva, a orthodox-zionist youth group.

2. What were some of the general perceptions/attitudes in your community towards a) non-Orthodox  Jews and Judaism b) BTs/converts and c) non Jews?

I grew up in a tolerant community, which was inclusive of the non-religious but the official organization was orthodox. A kind of United Synagogue ('Einheitsgemeinde' for insiders). BTs were often thought of as strange as they were different and tried to be 'more pious than the pope', but we were supportive of them. Same counts for converts, although the attitude was more negative, especially as many converts looked really non-Jewish and just converted for purposes of marriage. Non-Jews were a reality in our open society. Of course, the last thing you would do would be to get romantically involved with them, we called them goyim and it was a derogatory word. But we had a good relationship with our non-Jewish neighbors. Still, as a result of WWII, we knew that only few goyim tried to save Jews and then often just in order to 'save our souls' for Christianity, or they were childless couples who wanted to adopt a baby. My father was adopted in the war and his Christian parents were disappointed to see his mother return after the war.

3. For people who are not familiar with Orthodox  terminology, can you please talk about the term "Kofer" that you use in you blog, and what the implications of being a Kofer were/are in your community?

A kofer is someone who denies one or more basic tenets of faith. Often, people like these still keep up appearances in order to avoid possible social consequences. In my case, this could lead to a divorce, severe emotional turmoil with my parents and many unpleasant confrontations within the community. I live inside an area where I bump into many people on an almost daily basis. For me, at the moment, it is better to stay 'undercover' but it goes also at a cost, my general well-being. I hope that therapy will help me to be stronger from the inside and to be able to live the life I wish to live.

4. What led you to begin questioning Orthodox Judaism?

Since my teens, I always had questions that I pushed away. One thing I clearly remember is being asked about the morality of slaughtering innocent people with the conquest of Canaan. Also, the role of women always seemed to be unfair to me, despite the party line that says that women are equal but different. I also was aware that all of the Torah basically stands or falls with the Kuzari Principle. I wanted to research that. Only after my chevrusah (learning partner) quit learning with me (he wanted to go to a daily class), did I find time to read and investigate. And, boy, was I in for a surprise...

5. What prompted you to start blogging?

I had no other outlet for my kofer thoughts. And I guess I love attention. ;)

6. You spoke on your blog about "coming out" as a kofer to your wife. Do you still feel that you are living undercover?  Do you consider "Orthoprax" an accurate or useful term?

I did come out to my wife as an unbeliever but she doesn't know yet I eat treife out and sometimes break the Shabbat. 

I think Orthoprax strictly speaking does not apply to me as I eat treife and don't go to shul (except for Shabbat and Yom Tov). I like the term 'Undercover Kofer' ;)

7. What is the most difficult aspect of being undercover? How do you deal with/cope with these difficulties?

It is difficult in many aspects:

- I always have to hide eating treife

- Having to spend so many hours in shul on Shabbos and at the table, just wasting time and stuffing myself

- I can't openly talk about it with almost anyone, not even close family

- Having to answer my kid's questions (such as 'when the mashiach comes, this or that person will come back to life again, right daddy'?)

- Walking around with a kippah. Somehow I feel like I am announcing to everyone I am an idiot by just wearing one.

- Having to cope with people asking me where I davven

- Etc.

8. As an Undercover kofer + father, are you conflicted in terms of how to present Judaism to your children? 

Yes, see above. However, I try to be as honest as possible in answering tham along the lines of "this is what the Rabbis teach" instead of "this is what I think". But kids are not stupid and they will have to find out one day. I teach them to think for themselves, this may help.

9. How has your identifying yourself as a kofer affected your relationship with your family and frum peers?

Well my wife was quite accepting in the sense that she did not break off the relationship because of that. But there are strings attached: she wants me to keep things like kashrut, taharat hamishpacha, shabbat, etc.

I have taken a more skeptical stance with my frum peers and I actually feel better like that.

10. Have you ever "slipped" (i.e. break an Orthodox rule by mistake) in public?  If so, how have the people with you reacted?

Not really, although I am sure some people must've seen me buying treife.

11. Is there a different denomination of Judaism that you philosophically identify with?

Secular Judaism? :)

12. Is there anything you miss about your "pre-kofer" days? 

Yes, the emotions during praying and learning. The security about life and the afterlife. I needed to redefine my beliefs in a major way and it forces me to be a more responsible and realistic person.

13. What are your feelings now toward frumkeit, in general? (i.e. Do you resent having been raised frum?  Are there aspects of frumkeit that are important for you to preserve/impart to your children?)

In general, I would like to respect people that are frum, especially the moderates. The problem is that these are the 'enablers' of a more fundamentalist orthodoxy. It perpetuates the problem, as it were.

Still, emotionally, I would have a problem with it if Judaism would die out.

I don't resent growing up frum because that was just what life brought in my path. However, I wished sometimes I was able to live a normal life, rebel during my teenage years, study at a university, etc.

I do wish my children to grow up as responsible, well-adjusted people with a strong bond to their ethnic heritage. There are definitely values within Judaism that I would like to pass on to them very consciously, such as respect for people, tzedakah, visiting the sick, tikun olam, etc.

14. Do you mean all of Judaism in general, or Orthodoxy in particular? Do you feel non-Orthodox forms of Judaism hinge on Orthodox Judaism? (i.e. without Orthodox Judaism, the others won't really survive/exist)? 


Whole of Judaism but even more conservative forms of Judaism. Not sure if that has to do with the war or not, but it's definitely an emotional thing.

15.What do you enjoy most about not being frum (in belief, anyway)?

Feeling more empowered and eating treife.

16.What aspects of secular life do you think are most difficult for a formerly-frum (or someone in undercover/ in transition) to adapt to?

A lack of reference in many areas, especially culturally. Also, a different outlook on life, how to deal with the other sex, etc.

17 Would you mind elaborating, e.g do you have an example. (People who are secular wouldn't necessarily understand what would be "foreign" from a formerly OJ perspective.) 

Culturally: Movies, language (esp. slang), fashion, etc.

Different outlook of life: You grow up with this idea that life must have a meaning and everything turns around being subservient to God and the tribe. Putting yourself first gives you a total guilt trip, especially in the beginning.

Male-female relationships: You haven't got a half a clue how to approach women, you think that non-frum women are 'easy', etc.

18. Are there treif foods you still can't bring yourself to eat?

I would eat everything, just don't feel compelled to eat certain food like pork, lobster, octopus, etc. But I did already eat some of those ;)

19.What do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions that you have encountered from non-frum people about frum people?

I encountered few misconceptions, probably because I still look frum. Some misconceptions I found other people confronted with: people think that frum people are necessarily more honest in their dealings, the more 'traditional' you get dressed, the more religious you are, etc.

20.In your opinion, is it possible to give children a robust Jewish education without the expectation or assumption of belief and expectation of practice? i.e. is it possible to teach children to be Jewish literate, without being Jewish indoctrinate?  Is it worthwhile?

Yes, I would like my children to be knowledgeable in many aspects but at the same time to think critical. It will never be like a haredi education but broader in other ways.

21. How do you think living in a non-Orthodox community would impact your lifestyle? Is it something you would ever consider?

I am seriously considering it, but it may cost my marriage and I may have to completely redefine my daily life. Also, it has a major financial impact. I am not anxious to get there anytime soon.

22. What are your feelings towards kiruv organizations?

Mostly negative: They do fill in a need for some, but they usually teach these innocent souls a fundamentalist lifestyle and make it look like the most ethical thing they could do with their lives. I resent that very much.

23. What resources are available for people who are also undercover as you were/are? 

I started a website https://sites.google.com/site/otdresources/ but I hope that one day we can have a proper, well-funded multimedia site going. I have linked to some other valuable resources there. have a look ;) 

Interview with Atheodox Jew: Imagining an Atheist Orthodox Community

Continued from here.

CL:  After reading your bio, I'm really glad you hit on an aspect of Orthodoxy that my previous posts re: the appeal of Orthodoxy have neglected: the potential for intellectual development inherent in Orthodoxy as a result of the focus on Torah study. As an atheist, I could never fully engage, but it's interesting whether a community of "Atheodox Jews"  could offer an intellectually stimulating and honest Orthodox context that  does not currently exist elsewhere . . . i.e. an untapped religious niche/market :). 


Many atheists will dismiss this by pointing to intellectual stimulation via reading books/career etc., but those interests/activities are generally very compartmentalized in practice, and are not geared towards community building. By creating a community around Torah and its offshoots, the whole community has a unified text to discuss  - not so far off from the role of sports or TV in secular culture, but arguably more meaningful for many since it informs individual's lifestyle/decisions and links them to their heritage and each other. 


In any case, thank you very much for answering the questions  below. Much appreciate the dialogue!

AJ: Thank YOU so much. I appreciate your sincerity, depth and good-natured way. Before I get to the questions, let me put my responses in context. Part of what I say comes from a purely experiential place, sharing how I manage to adapt to Orthodoxy as a non-believer. I've found that it's entirely possible to be a religious Jew - to be observant, learn Torah, work on one's middot, do chesed, etc. - without living in a "God reality", without having to subscribe to a set of beliefs in supernatural entities, metaphysical realities, without believing that the Torah is literally or historically true. I know that puts me at odds with the system, and I can live with that. 

But there is a side of me that says no - I'm not at odds with the system. The refusal to accept unreasonable beliefs is not a "sin" - adaraba (just the opposite), it's an idealistic position in Torah, something to be proud of, to esteem to, a sign of the quintessentially Jewish anti-idolatry "bug" we've been blessed with. It is a statement that Torah ultimately strives for truth - which means that not only is non-belief "excusable", but in fact it's a "mitzvah" to cleanse Torah of superstitious or otherwise unreasonable beliefs. It's a framework that says Torah is not afraid of rejecting a part of itself, for the sake of truth. That is "Torat Emet".

So some of my responses may be in the more experiential spirit, and some may reflect the more idealistic position.

1.  How would you envision halacha to be reframed in an Atheodox context? Does it shift from law to suggestion? 

As soon as we start with the premise of atheism, the concept of mitzvah as "Divine Command" ceases to be. There is no "revelation", no "contract with God". There is something else however: an unwritten contract by/among the Jewish people - a commitment to remain a people, and to strive for a high level of conduct and contribution (to be a "Goy Kadosh" and "Or LeGoyim"). And on that count, halacha has much to contribute, both in terms of helping us to maintain our identity (laying out a system of rules/norms unique to the Jewish people), and in the detailed attention given toward refining one's personal conduct/character (especially in developing greater interpersonal sensitivity, expressed in laws "Ben Adam LeChavero" and other places).

Halacha also contributes by offering a world of intellectual and creative discourse. Engaging in the study of halacha (specifically how it develops through Mishna, Gemara, Rishonim, Achronim) is the "meat and potatoes" of yeshiva-style Torah learning. This learning is the foundation of a Talmid Chacham, a "Lamdan" (with all due respect to the idea of "Reshit Chochma Yirat Hashem"). And beyond being a fascinating, engaging, dynamic and highly intellectually stimulating activity, beyond the "lishma" enjoyment it provides, the study of halacha no doubt enriches and adds depth to our observance. Also, as opposed to discussions of "hashkafa", halacha is naturally quite "atheistic" in nature, meaning it is primarily the study of logical/conceptual interrelations, not metaphysics and theology.

All that said, in terms of actual practice, I see no way around the fact that some areas of halacha either have to be reworked or simply abandoned. What is the criteria for deciding which halachot are problematic? I don't have a hard and fast rule to offer, and the reality is that such criteria will probably emerge spontaneously out of popular sentiment, but here is one possible approach:

The Torah tells us not to put a stumbling block before the blind or curse the deaf, because "you should fear your God". Likewise, Sodom was known as having no "fear of God". What do these instances of "fearing God" have in common? Simply, to curse a deaf person or sodomize your guests is below the level of what is minimally acceptable for civil society (or at least according to Bronze Age Near Eastern criteria). That is what the Torah means by having no "fear of God" - it refers to a lack of the most basic civility.

I use this as the basis for a guideline. In order to determine whether a halacha should be revisited/changed/abandoned, we need to look at the norms of modern, civil, free, enlightened society. Whatever halacha (rule or practice) falls "below" what such a society can allow (rendering it "uncivil", as contravening the goals of free society or basic human rights) - that halacha needs to be changed, repudiated or eliminated. Any practice which is beneath the dignity of the wider society is in effect a "Chilul HaShem" (if not halachically, then in spirit), and a Torah community cannot, and should not, conduct itself in that manner. And since the rules of halacha represent a human contract, not something etched into the heavens, we can change it as we see fit. (Though rather than simply bypassing halacha, we may opt instead to creatively reformulate halacha so as to reflect and support such change.)

2. In my post “The Country Club” I listed four groups that I think are marginalized in Orthodox Judiasm (in no particular order): Women, Homosexuals, Atheists, and People who marry non-Jews (and I have since learned that people considered Mamzerim would also be marginalized).  Would a Humanistic Model of Modern Orthodoxy demarginalize all groups, or are some taboos (e.g. on intermarriage) too ingrained for the Orthodox community to overlook/revise?

 Excellent question. In the "Country Club" post, you spoke about official club rules vs. member sentiment. That would be one way to frame this discussion, since some of the marginalization you mentioned is halachically sanctioned, and some has nothing whatsoever to do with halacha and instead is a function of community sentiment (norms & taboos). So for instance, to my knowledge being gay or marrying a non-Jew should have no impact in any way on a person's halachic standing (they can be given an aliyah, give testimony, etc.). Of course in reality, they do face potential rejection by their communities. Being an atheist may affect one's halachic status, depending on the extent of the non-belief, how that person expresses it, and whether that puts the person into the category of "kofer", "apikores", etc. But again, even if one's non-belief is deemed not to affect their halachic standing, it no doubt presents a formidable social/communal challenge. "Mamzer" is of course a halachic category and has its implications. (Same with blindness, deafness, mental retardation, deformity, and other factors beyond a person's control.) 

And yes, women are certainly treated differently in halacha, and I would agree it's not all in the spirit of "vive la différence!" - some of it is indeed experienced as marginalization. Since free societies have essentially rejected inequality of women before the law and in terms of opportunity, a Torah community can do no less than afford women equal status, e.g., in terms of divorce, testimony, counting as part of a minyan, functioning as a Rabbi, a Dayan, etc. The same goes for homosexuality - if it is illegal and immoral in a free society to discriminate against gays, a Torah society can be no worse in that regard. (Yes, Torah should ideally strive to be "better", but at the very least it shouldn't be worse.) As far as belief in God, there is absolutely nothing "uncivil" about being an atheist in modern, free, predominantly secular society. Besides, how could Atheodoxy marginalize atheists! 

As for the question of marrying a non-Jew, a couple of points. Again, there is nothing "uncivil" about interfaith marriage, and if anything it would be uncivil to marginalize such a person. However, in many cases intermarriage is a decision to remove oneself from observance, and in effect to "leave" the Jewish people by virtue of one's children having less (if any) identification as Jews. Is it "wrong" to do so in any absolute or "spiritual" sense? No. Do we, as autonomous, free people have every right to decide how to conduct our lives? Absolutely. But nonetheless it's a decision to break a very basic social contract, one which sees maintaining a Jewish people and being a part of it as something with inherent value. And that, I believe, is not something to be done lightly.

Now, what about someone who marries a non-Jew, yet the non-Jewish partner (or child) "identifies" as Jewish? Do they need to convert? What about the larger "who's a Jew" question? I'll give you my personal view on this. I see as the most decent, civil and reasonable approach (and counter to normative halacha, at least as it's currently understood) to say that anyone who either practices and lives as a Jew, or who counts themselves as a Jew, puts themselves in the same "boat" as the Jewish people (for better or for worse) and is dedicated to their well-being - that is a person I'd like to count as a Jew. If they want to immerse in a mikvah, because that is an act which Jewish tradition associates with starting one's identity as a Jew, great. If not, it's certainly not a deal-breaker.

So to answer the question, is Halacha "law" or "suggestion"? I'm not sure it's either one. It has a social contract aspect. It has a self-identity aspect, an idealism/"higher conduct" aspect, an intellectual-engagement aspect. And then there are parts of halacha which don't hold up to contemporary standards of civil and free society and have to change.


3. Since the "social contract" in the atheist context is really a cultural one - i.e. behavior that indicates one is participating in a  a culture - how is intermarriage breaking a "social contract" any more than marrying a completely non-observant Jew? (The wording of your answer suggests that intermarriage would continue to be strongly discouraged, but I don't really see how intermarriage is that different from marrying secular - except that it is  hugely stigmatized in the community.) 

Yes, I was actually thinking about this question as I wrote but somehow didn't address it. Here goes...

Very true, marrying a non-observant Jew (or becoming non-observant) can likewise result in one's (or one's children's) dissociation/dis-identification from the Jewish people. However, marrying a non-Jew is typically a compounding factor, as the person is coming in with a different religious identity, different set of cultural norms, potentially different beliefs. Granted, the same could be said for a person who is halachically "Jewish" but grew up in a Christian home, and the opposite could be said of one who is halachically "non-Jewish" but who grew up Jewish - who again I would like to call Jewish by virtue of the person's identifying as such.

My main point is that self-perpetuation of a people is a reasonable goal, which means that discouraging attrition is a significant value (part of the "contract"), and one way of doing that is to discourage intermarriage as a general rule. That said, I agree that other factors which would result in attrition/dis-identification should also be discouraged, and I recognize that not everyone fits the "general rule". If one can marry a non-Jew and pass on a robust Jewish identity, all the power to them. Lastly, I want to emphasize that personal autonomy is key, and if Jewish identity is not something a person wants to embrace, that is entirely their prerogative.

4: To stay “Orthodox”, it would seem some forms of halacha would have to remain binding to a certain extent. Are there any halachot that you see as non-negotiable  - shabbos/kashrut for instance?

AJ: Once there's no "mitzvah", all halacha technically becomes a "rishut" (a matter of personal preference) - nothing is "binding" per se. The question then becomes what do we value, what do we enjoy, what do we feel is so integral a part of Jewish observance and identity that we simply "have to" maintain it in order to keep the culture intact? Brit Milah falls into that category for most Jews. So does having a Passover Seder. For Orthodox culture, Shabbat and Kashrut definitely fall into that category, and in fact so do most observances. There is a certain rhythm, a "gestalt", to Orthodox life, which all the various observances together help to create. That said, I think there is a certain amount of change, including lapses in observance, which could be absorbed in the system, and it would still retain the feel of "Orthodox life" - or if not exactly "Orthodox" then a robust, vibrant, distinctively Jewish life which is capable of sustaining itself.

5. What would the role of the tradition of Torah literature and thought be? How could it be reframed in a non-theistic Orthodoxy? (I'm imagining as a "historic chain" that links us to our ancestors . . .but the reverence might shift in currency. Jewish art/literature etc., are also chains - would they be elevated in stature?)

Yes, there is an appeal to linking back through history and feeling connected to something that spans not only our lifetime but the lifetime of our people. But that's just one aspect. Like halacha, Torah on the whole has a strong moral/pedagogical component, a self-identity component, an intellectual engagement component, etc. Somehow, we are who we are as Jews, by virtue of our continued involvement with Torah - and often times by our very opposition to Torah. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a shiur (Torah lecture) and come away with a feeling of great clarity, understanding, and sense of mission - precisely because I completely disagreed with it! So whether we're inspired by, and in full agreement with, a particular piece of Torah, or whether we find it terribly wrong-headed and hard to stomach, Torah learning is a win-win proposition. 

As far as "reverence", the sheer magnitude of all the careful thought, the endless tomes of material that have been output by Torah scholars throughout the centuries on almost every subject imaginable, is something which stands on its own as something to be revered. Jewish art and literature may be no less depthful or worthy of study, as are science and other fields of knowledge. And yes, by virtue of Torah being strictly human, it is not inherently "higher" than other areas of study. Yet there is something unique about Torah learning which fuels our identity and vitality as Jews in a way that perhaps nothing else can.

6. How would this model of Modern Orthodoxy be distinct from Reconstructionist Judaism (aside from the possible omission of references to God)? (The question could also be posed as: What would need to happen for this model of Orthodoxy to remain distinct from other more liberal Jewish movements e.g. Reconstructionist etc.)

First off, in theory Atheodoxy is not limited to the Modern Orthodox sector. In fact I could see there being a very robust "yeshivish" Atheodoxy. Imagine combining the intellectual acumen, attention to middot, and in-depth knowledge of Torah of the yeshivish persona, with a fully rational, non-superstitious, "no-intellectual-shtus" approach. I know people like this, and it's a powerful combination! So it already exists - but as I mentioned before I'm not naive enough to think the Haredi/Yeshivish world would embrace the "Godlus of Godlessness" (to coin a phrase) anytime soon. They will most certainly fight tooth and nail against it. So will right-wing MO for that matter, since it seeks to prove itself as worthy in the eyes of the Haredi world. Left-wing MO to a certain extent also wants to prove itself as "serious" about Torah/observance to right-wing MO, but the fact that the left-wing prides itself on being tolerant, accepting and open-minded means that this is where Atheodoxy has a fighting chance to coalesce, build a community, and start to gain a degree of legitimacy. But this process will be ever... so... slow. We're talking decades.

To answer your question though, what sets Atheodoxy apart from non-Orthodox movements is the same thing which separates Orthdoxy from those movements - things like learning Gemara, keeping Shabbat, being immersed in Torah and mitzvot as part of one's daily life and identity.

7. Would you see this community as having stronger allies among liberal movements or other Orthodox groups?

That's tough to gauge. Initially, Orthodox groups will not want to touch Atheodoxy with a ten-foot-pole, let alone count it as an "ally". Atheodoxy will be likened to the pig that displays its split hooves to appear kosher, but is really 100% treif. It will be likened to Lavan, which as the Haggadah says, "sought to uproot everything". Only non-Orthodox movements would dare have anything to do with a group which calls itself Atheodox. But culturally, Atheodox individuals will no doubt do exactly what they do now - live in mainstream Orthodox society. That is their cultural base, their home.

8. How would educational models approach this form of Orthodoxy? i.e. How much needs to be taught so that the next generation can carry the torch once the theistic foundation is removed? Or, in what detail would the theistic roots be taught. i.e. if the community adopts Tzemah Yoreh’s model/philosophy of davening, would children still need to be fluent in the antecedents? 

I would say as follows - the same classical Torah texts would be taught which have always been taught. However, they will be taught with a rational overlay. For instance, if we read, "Hakadosh Baruch Hu wants us to do X, Y and Z", it might be discussed as: "X, Y and Z are understood to be important. Can anyone explain why? Does anyone disagree?" In addition, there is value in being exposed to the traditional theological model if only to gain clarity as to why we reject such belief. That being said, I would imagine that texts with a predominantly theological emphasis, which focus on "Devekut", love and fear of God, etc., will probably generate less interest. But that still leaves considerably more Torah to learn than most people can possibly digest in their lifetime. I also hold out the possibility that Atheodoxy could spawn a new creative renaissance in Torah literature - original works, commentaries, treatises on halacha and machshava (thought/philosophy), entirely new genres for all I know.

As much as I admire the work of Tzemah Yoreh, my hunch (as I mentioned in response to the "Question for Orthopraxers" post) is that Atheodoxers would probably prefer traditional davening (or to stop davening altogether) over davening from an "Atheist's Siddur". The reason is that davening per se is not an activity that interests most people - its appeal is in taking part in a familiar, shared communal experience, something whose details are discussed in halacha, an activity people already have a "rhythm" with - and that includes the words and tunes used in traditional davening. Could Atheodox davening have a different "spin" to it? (Maybe not being so long, for starters?) Absolutely. Like I said about Orthodoxy in general, there's a certain amount of change that can be absorbed, whereby davening is still davening. At a certain point though, it becomes something else. And that is also ok, don't get me wrong. If the "consumer demand" is there, that will determine what people do. If davening gets dropped altogether, or is replaced by learning or another communal activity, that could work as well. I for one would welcome it!

9. Do you know many people who are Orthoprax? Is your impression that people are Orthoprax by choice - i.e. they really like Orthodox culture? Or by circumstance: because they lost faith after starting families etc., and do not want to disappoint their loved ones/lose their social support system? If most are from the second group - i.e. they are disenchanted with Orthodoxy, do you think this model of Orthodoxy makes being Orthodox more palatable, or do you think given the choice, most Orthopraxers-by-circumstance would sooner just drop being Orthodox all together?

I don't know any Jewish atheists who have taken on Orthodox observance simply because they like the culture. Invariably, it's people who start off Orthodox and then realize they can't abide by the beliefs. So I'm not expecting Atheodoxy to be a "kiruv" vehicle. It is primarily intended to serve those within Orthodoxy who see the value, depth, and vitality in being a Torah-observant Jew and living in a Torah-observant community, but who value truth, who feel it is neither appropriate nor "holy" to contaminate their minds or their children's minds with irrational or harmful dogma, and who - like Avraham Avinu - would like to "cross over the river" and leave the idolatry of false beliefs behind. At least that is how I feel, at any rate. So yes, if there is no "Eye in the Sky", there are many who would sooner leave Orthodoxy altogether. But others may see Atheodoxy as offering the best of both worlds - a rich, idealistic Jewish life, where that idealism very much includes respect for reason and the mind.

10. A more personal question: What do you tell your children? Are you open with them about being atheist?

What I tell my children depends on their age. Younger children can indulge in fantasy, and I believe that's perfectly okay. Once they reach the neighborhood of Bar/Bat Mitzvah age however, I try to introduce a more "rationalist" approach so as to minimize irrational or superstitious beliefs. I have not yet declared myself an "atheist" to any of my children, but I speak about Torah and Judaism in reasoned, human terms, and in that sense I am transmitting Judaism as an atheist - i.e. "without God".